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Poland
06/14/99-07/12/99

I went to Poland with two veterinary students: Agnes Van Volkenburg (Ill.) and David Dawson (UCD); and Dr. Lisa Howe (TAMU). Agnes had organized the trip with a Dodge Foundation grant to promote early spay/neuter in dogs/cats in Poland. David had gone to Bosnia on a Dodge Foundation grant, Dr. Howe is a surgeon on staff at TAMU and has done research on early sterilization. I went on behalf of VWAH (Veterinarians for World Animal Health) to research our possible involvement in their sterilization program. (There is one flight daily from the US to Warsaw, on LOT (Polish Airlines), Chicago to Warsaw. I was on Flt. 2. The return flight was LOT Flt. 1.)

In Poland, we were met by two Asst. Professors from the veterinary college in Lublin, approx. 100 miles southeast of Warsaw. They were Roland and Romex, from the Reproduction Dept., and a driver, and we were driven through the countryside to Lublin. The weather was hot and humid, with occasional showers. We were on the major highway to Lublin, which was a fairly well-maintained, narrow, 2-lane road; however it seemed quite "normal" for oncoming traffic to incorporate the shoulders to allow us a third "passing" lane in the middle of the road. As chaotic as it may seem, all drivers seemed unaffected as we tooled along passing slower cars, trucks, tractors making our narrow, 2-lane road into an even narrower 3-lane road. None the less, we made it to Lublin totally unscathed.

The countryside is very green and composed of small, individual farms with narrow frontages and deep lots. From the air, one sees an intricate patchwork of individual farms, long and skinny, extending from either side of the highways. Many have a single cow chained to a stake, grazing, and although there were a few tractors, many still use old-fashioned horse power (the 4-legged variety) for their farming. Paradoxically, communism—which after 1956 dropped attempts to collective agriculture and left the Polish farmer on his small, uneconomical plot—has preserved rural Poland in a romantic, pre-industrial state. We arrived in Lublin and took a brief tour of the small veterinary college. Then we were taken to a stable and went on a vigorous horseback ride.

The veterinary college has various departments, and as near as I could tell, we were involved primarily with the Repro Dept. Most students were off for the summer, but there were a few around campus. There are approx. 200 students, and the mix seems similar to the US in terms of age and gender. The next day there was a program on birth control in dogs and cats. Dr. Lisa Howe gave a talk on the advantages and safety of early sterilization and David gave a talk on his experiences in Bosnia; Agnes translated, and I "supervised". The head of the department also spoke (in Polish, duh!) and apparently is not a proponent of surgical sterilization. He spoke of various medical alternatives (progesterones, etc.). Someone mentioned that they just "give progesterone until pyometra develops, then the animal is spayed." Lisa also demonstrated spays on a 6-week-old puppy as well as a kitten.

As far as I could tell, the program was fairly well received, however the level of veterinary care is probably 20-30 years behind us (US). Bare-handed surgery is not uncommon, and even though Halothane anesthesia is available, sort of, it is rarely used. (There is only one unit in the college, but it "belongs to the Surgery Department."). Our hosts were very gracious; and eating, drinking and socializing are a very big part of their culture. We were treated to a lavish, secluded dinner in a private "castle", where Polish Vodka, a staple, flowed freely. ("How can they NOT afford a gas anesthesia machine and yet take us out to such a dinner—at a castle, no less!" "Culture", I responded.)

We also visited an animal shelter in Lublin. The shelter is privately-run and funded primarily through donations and adoption fees; however there is some (minimal) funding from the municipality. This seems to be typical for most shelters in eastern Europe. They house approx. 160 dogs plus cats, and adoptions cost anywhere from $3-25 US). There is only one spayed female dog, and she has been there 2 years—"no one wants to adopt her." Young, aggressive dogs are most in demand. The shelter was fairly modern and well-run, given the state of over-crowding.

We were taken back to Warsaw and the next day we were picked up and taken to the veterinary academy in Olsztyn, approx. 100 miles north of Warsaw. We arrived a little late, were rushed through our presentation to students and staff, then were asked to attend the graduation ceremony of their current class of 60 students; again the mix of age and gender was the same as here. The affair was fairly informal, no caps and gowns, and many awards from various companies and regions. Then, we were taken to another banquet with the faculty—fancy, lavish, champagne, wine and vodka!

We were not able to tour the school, but were taken on a brief tour of Olsztyn, where Copernicus laid the foundation for modern astronomy with his heliocentric theory of planetary motion in the 1500’s. The tower where he made his observations and calculations is still there and open to the public where one can see the lines he drew on the wall as the sun’s shadow migrated as the seasons passed.

We returned to Warsaw, where we toured another animal shelter. This is the largest of two shelters in Warsaw housing over 400 dogs and 100 cats. It is managed by a true animal lover and her veterinarian husband. There are 5 veterinarians on staff and there is at least one on the premise 24 hrs per day. They also have a pet ambulance, and will pick up stray and injured animals; no dogs are turned away. The employed vets are paid about 2,000 zloty (~$500 US)/month; I was told this is slightly less than one would make in private practice. Adoptions cost anywhere from $2-15 US, and all females are spayed; males are not neutered. They perform ~200 spays per month and are just able to keep up with demand. This is a very progressive shelter with a separate surgery room. They use ketamine/xlazine anesthesia, gloves, gowns, individually wrapped suture material and close with a subcuticular suture. Cats are spayed through the flank.

We stayed in Warsaw a couple more days and visited the Old Town. Warsaw’s population is ~1.5 million (total pop. of Poland is ~38 million). After W.W.II Warsaw (as much of Poland) lay in ruins after systematic Nazi destruction. Only one-third of its pre-war population survived the German occupation. The Old Town has been painstakingly reconstructed and is quite beautiful and is on the banks of the Vistula River. However there is virtually no activity on this river as opposed to other European cities on rivers such as the Danube or Rhine. Modern Warsaw built since the war is in gray, utilitarian Socialist-Realist and later styles. It may not be the most attractive city, but is one approach to urban life.

We also took a tour of Majdenek, one of many concentration camps in Poland (including Auschwitz ) where massacres and starvation decimated Poland’s population; over 6 million Poles, including some 3 million Jews, were killed. This was quite a sobering experience and a grim reminder of man’s capacity for inhumanity. (Aren’t we grand?!!)

Finally, I spent a day in Krakow in southern Poland. Krakow, once the country’s capital, is one of the few Polish cities that miraculously escaped the devastation of W.W.II. It’s towers, ramparts, churches, and facades illustrate more than seven centuries of Polish architecture and is listed by UNESCO as one of the 12 great historic cities of the world.

I did not see much of a stray dog problem in the cities we visited. There were a fair number of dogs on leashes in the parks, but virtually no strays were seen in Warsaw. In the park in Krakow, I saw 2-3 strays, but they looked fairly healthy and well fed. Very few stray cats were seen as well. The two shelters we visited complained about funding and the need for more space, facilities and staff, but then don’t we all? The veterinary facility in the Warsaw shelter seemed competent and adequate, however it is the only one in Warsaw (and possibly the entire country). The other shelter does not sterilize. I did not get a feel for the attitudes of the Polish people regarding sterilization, however the faculty at the Veterinary Academy in Olsztyn teaches and recommends surgical sterilization and says our experience in Lublin is not typical of the veterinary community.

After leaving Warsaw, I visited a German friend at his home outside of Hanover. We met in the States when he was here for a month riding with a local horse trainer. There is a large NATO facility in the nearby forests, with marked activity of troops preparing to go to Kosovo. I also spent a couple of days in Berlin, home of the largest construction site in the world and the Berlin Wall.

After Germany I went to Turkey and spent ~2 weeks exploring the Aegean coast including such sites as the Gallipoli, Canakkale, the Dardeanelles, Troy, Asos, Ephesus, Kusadasi, Pamukkale and Chesme. Once outside of Istanbul— a city of over 10 million people and countless stray dogs and cats, high rise commercial buildings, tenement housing, affluent homes overlooking the Bosphorus and cardboard shacks on the hillsides—there are areas of beautiful, lush green countryside, farms and gorgeous beachside resorts, as well as some not so luxurious resorts, not unlike some areas in Baja. There is also a tremendously interesting history in Turkey as well as countless ancient Greek and Roman ruins and archeological sights and the chalky, white cliffs and mineral-rich volcanic springs of Pamukkale.

I got back last Monday night, a little tired and glad to be home. The more I travel, the more I realize how fortunate we are to live in such a country. When someone complained about the small, confining accommodations, I suggested they be grateful that at least they had hot and cold running water! I am constantly reminded how "fat", lazy, arrogant and unappreciative so many of us have become. Remember, You feel sorry when you have no shoes, until you see a man with no feet. Think about it.

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Wild Burro Rescue
02/21/99-02/28/99 

WBR is a non-profit group founded by Diana Chantos, WA. She created the organization to save burros from being shot in Death Valley. The National Park Service’s position is the wild burros are not indigenous to Death Valley, and they want to maintain the Parks in as "original" condition as possible. Last year she rescued approx. 30 burros; this year she entered an agreement to remove and home approx. 100 wild burros. In return, the US National Park Service (NPS) agreed not to shoot any burros this year; the contract will be negotiated again next year, and, hopefully, annually. NPS agreed to pay for the professional wranglers and provided corral panels to hold the burros in Death Valley Junction until their departure. WBR provides volunteers, feed, vet. services (health certificates, Coggins tests, vaccinations, deworming) and transportation.

Death Valley is a very beautiful Park! (And, it hasn’t change much from 40 years ago, as I remember...) Spring is very mild, with daytime temps in the 70’s and nights in the low 40’s, and there are many sites easily accessible by road--Badwater (-280’) is the lowest point in Death Valley (and the U.S.); Natural Bridge, where water rushing through cracks in weaker strata gradually undercut the rock and left a large natural bridge formation 50 ft. above the wash bed; Artists Palette, an unusual mosaic of red, yellow, orange, green, violet, brown and black hues, produced by oxidation in the eroded clay deposits; Dante’s View, a spectacular view across the Badwater area, miles of salt flats and the sheer walls of the Panamint Mountains with the Sierra Nevada beyond; Mosaic Canyon, multi-colored rock polished by centuries of rushing flash flood waters; Sand Dunes, changing contours, deep shadows and ripple patterns dramatically highlighted at sunrise, sunset and moonlit nights; Ubehebe Crater a spectacular result of a violent volcanic explosion, nearly 1/2 mile wide and 500 feet deep; Scotty’s Castle, an extravagant mansion in the Spanish-Moorish style, with a colorful, if not dubious history; Rhyolite, a ghost town including the glass bottle house; and Salt Creek, the home of the 1" pupfish, which has successfully adapted to the heat, high salinity and intermittent lack of water in its present environment; just to name a few.

The capture site for the wild burros was Saline Valley in the west, approx. 3.5 hrs from Death Valley Junction, half on dirt roads. A wing trap was set up and burros were located by helicopter and herded in by the helicopter and wranglers on horseback. It is an awesome site watching the whirling blades of the chopper stirring up dust, chasing the burros kept on track with 4-5 wranglers on horseback, herding them into the wing trap and into a pipe corral, to be loaded into stock trailers and taken to their temporary home in Death Valley Junction. In 3 days, a total of 87 burros (including 3 suckling babies under 2 months of age) were collected. All of the burros appeared relatively healthy, in good flesh and in good condition. The wild burros are much calmer and easier to work with than wild horses. I guess that’s why most of these people are so involved with them as opposed to horses...

One evening 10 burros got loose, or were set loose--no one knows for sure. Malicious? Or liberated? (Wouldn’t that be ironic, the new liberators liberating from the initial liberators! Yes, irony can be pretty ironic sometimes...) The next day the wranglers agreed to recapture them. It took almost 2 hours to get permission for them to search over BLM land and recapture the NPS burros, as their contract was only to capture burros on Park Service land. Fortunately, someone at BLM has the courage to stuck his neck out and faxed a letter giving permission. The 10 were found and returned safely.

We stayed in Death Valley Junction, a near ghost town, at the Amargosa Hotel (supposedly haunted). The owner, Marta Becket, a NY ballerina touring the west, came across, fell in love with and bought the abandoned complex ~34 years ago. She created her Opera House in 1968 and began painting the walls with murals of various audiences. By 1972 (4 years later!) she had created her permanent audience of 16th century Spanish Royalty, clerics, gypsies, nuns, revelers, cats, etc., etc., as well as a dome surrounded by more artwork, and began her show of ballet and mime. She wrote, choreographed and performed every night, sometimes without any live patrons. After 30 years, she still performs 2 shows per week to sold-out audiences during the season. She has been and still is assisted by only one other person, her faithful friend Tom.

As I mentioned, the Amargosa Hotel patrons supposedly share the facilities and rooms with ghosts and/or spirits. Lori, one of the receptionists, long-time residents and (apparently) somewhat close to the spirits has a wealth of stories as well as photos of the "ectoplasm", as she calls them. She seems very comfortable around them, and there seems to be no malicious intent--just friendly playfulness. I looked at an album full of her photographs--lots of odd going-ons. Many could possibly be explained by lens flair, fogging of film, fingers in front of the lens (although she swears that is not the case); however many show odd, unexplainable spheres of light, "plasma" and other curiosities. Artifacts or real? I guess you’ll just have to go to see for yourself...

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Turkey
August 98

We left 8/29/98 for a 2 week trip to work w/some local vets and animal shelters in Istanbul and all went well. Our group was four vets from VWAH (Veterinarians for World Animal Health)--Drs. Ginny Bischel, Dorothy York (N. Calif.), Keith Hilinski, and myself. The people and hosts there were so nice, I could hardly refuse an invitation to stay a little longer. I could have stayed a lot longer, since I'm now unemployed, but there were a few things I had to take care of (like an overdue library book, and paying Uncle Sam), and since I was flying standby, I came home last Friday, 9/11. Sat. I volunteered at a feral cat spay clinic (after the 24 hr. flt home), and have been trying to catch up, paying bills, and recovering from jet lag since.

Our trip was financed by an English businessman, Robert Smith. He owns a textile company, and has plants in London and Istanbul and one or two other countries. He's an "animal lover" and got involved w/others in Istanbul. He tried working w/local groups and municipalities to "fix" the stray dog problem, and after much frustration he decided to build his own shelter! He built a facility that can house >300 dogs, and also built a mini hospital. His (and others') goal is to capture, sterilize and home or re-release animals w/out owners (he named his org. Soc. for Protection of Animals Without Owners). He has hired a couple of vets and over 10 staff to run the operation. He comes to Turkey maybe 2x/month. He somehow heard about our group and paid for 4 of us to come over to advise and offer assistance and training to his and other local vets. He also had us buy and take with us an isoflurane anesthetic machine, 6 case of iso and a bunch of other stuff! We packed it all with us and fortunately made it thru customs w/out incidence.

Istanbul was interesting and fun. It's a large city of >10 million people! Turkey is considered a "developing" nation and is a very neat mixture of old and new, east and west. Istanbul sits in the NW, on the Bosporus, a river connecting the Black Sea and the Marmara Sea which empties into the Aegean via the Dardanelles . The Bosporus is the division between the continents of Asia and Europe, so it truly is where east meets west. The people and culture also represent that meeting. In the city there are people dressed in typical western garb among devout Muslims covered w/veils. The monetary unit is the Turkish Lira, and as of last week one American dollar was worth 277,000 TL. So, being a developing nation is not a problem, everyone is a millionaire! (Gee, don't I sound like a travel guide?)

Anyway, Robert put us in a nice hotel for the 1st two nites, then we stayed in his manager's flat the rest of the time. We had an English-speaking host/guide who took us to various shelters and facilities and we worked with local vets. Overall I would say their vet skill levels are a few years behind ours. Many of the vets we saw had difficulty making square knots in surgery. Interestingly, they all do cat spays thru the flank (which I've seen once or twice here since graduation) and other than cosmetics (shaving the side) I could not see much disadvantage, and some advantages for that approach. (An "older" vet Sat. told me that that was routine in America 40 yrs ago.) S/A vets do not make much money in Turkey, we met a student who is going into food animal medicine because of the money. The f/t vet hired by Robert to mainly do surgery (no mgt.) is getting ~$800/mo for 5-1/2 days/wk. The average income in Turkey is ~$300 (83M TL!)/mo.

We were treated very well by everyone, the vets seemed very interested and open to meeting with us, and all the people were very appreciative, friendly and hospital. We were even in the local press twice and I understand on local TV! Of course, since I cannot understand Turkish, I have no idea what they were saying--possibly "American Vets come to kill dogs in Turkey!" I have a copy of one of the papers; know any Turkish interpreters?

The food is great, lots of vegetables, kabob, meatballs, yogurt... Very similar to what we had in Greece, much healthier than western Europe (fried Schnitzels!). Everyone in Istanbul drinks bottled water (plain).

As I said, I decide to stay an extra week and got to see a little more of Istanbul, although I did not get out of the city. It was fun, the city was nice and interesting and since I'm anxious to "see the world" I would love to go back.

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Europe
June 98 

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Greece
10/25/97

This trip to Greece was organized by VWAH (Veterinarians for World Animal Health) and GAWF (Greek Animal Welfare Fund). We paid for our own airfare, but accommodations, food and transport was arranged and paid for by GAWF.

Participants: Dr. Ginny Bischel, owner of Otay and Eastlake Village Vet. Clinics, San Diego, co-founder of VWAH; Dr. Dorothy York, Fresno, Calif. Dept. of Ag, co-fonder of VWAH; Dr. Chris Witham, Davis, private practice, equine; and me.

Sat 1:35PM Depart San Diego --> LA --> Frankfort --> Athens

Sun 4:35PM Arrive Athens. Met Dr. W in Frankfort.

Met by Carol and Joe McBeth, GAWF (Greek Animal Welfare Fund); stayed overnight w/George and Elke in Rafina. Elke fixed what is apparently a typical Greek breakfast -- bread, cheese, sliced luncheon-type meat, juice, coffee/tea. No signs of jet lag.

Mon 7:30AM Ferry to Gavias on Andros Island, ~2hrs. Met by taxi driver and drove to other side of island, near Andros Town; stayed at Pigi Sarisa hotel. Very nice hotel, plenty of hot water! They made a special omelette with potatoes and sausage -- this was the first and last time we saw an egg in Greece.

Met Yannis (a retired captain of the merchant marines) there, who drove us around the island. The island has varied terrain from beaches to mountains, with 1000 year old rock walls and buildings. We traveled around Andros Town and saw local donkeys and mules, mostly chronic lameness or respiratory problems, and a few with melanomas. Had dinner at the hotel with Yannis and George. The Greeks are known for as merchant marines, but not fishermen. There is surprising little seafood on the islands or the mainland. Typical dishes are very flavorful and simple, and include sausages, meatballs, stews, pork and french fried potatoes. We did have pickled octopus and calamari and muscles, but fresh sea food is rare. There was lots of bread, but very little rice.

Tues AM Visited farmers in the mountains with Yannis. These are generations-old farms and farmers, using horses and donkeys as pack animals. They are housed in closed, poorly ventilated "barns", and chronic respiratory diseases was common in the older animals. We also saw one horse with a huge subcutaneous "tumor" of 10 years duration.

These people are very generous and friendly, and firmly entrenched in tradition. They were appreciative of our meetings, but were reluctant to accept more than some first aid and minor suggestions. They refused free vaccinations or deworming, as there was "no need" in their eyes. Chronic lameness was also common in the older animals. None were shod; the farmers feel that shoes are too slippery on the rocks. At many stops the owners offered us home-made wine and food; and the Greeks have quite a sweet tooth with a love of sticky, gooey, sweet syrupy dishes. The weather was fairly mild and breezy.

Tues PM Met with Georges Katsikis, who has a degree in agriculture, and wants to help raise the level of agriculture on the island. We saw numerous families, horses and burros in Hora, Andros and Korthi; removed a large squamous cell carcinoma from a burro and treated an overweight donkey for laminitis; saw a pregnant mare, and a horse with hoof problems. Had a late lunch (~4:00) in Korthi before returning to the hotel and dinner at 9:00. The Greeks eat late.

On Andros we saw about 35 horses and donkeys. Overall, the animals in the lower areas where life is a little more civilized were very healthy. The donkeys in the mountains were not quite as fortune, especially due to housing, as described.

Wed 9:00AM Left hotel after the typical breakfast and rode taxi back to Gavias; 11:00 ferry to Rafina. There were met by George and taken to a house where the S/A Drs. were spaying and neutering dogs and cats. It was pretty cold and the surgeons were dressed in layers of sweaters and sweatshirts and jackets to keep warm while spaying. We helped them for ~4 hours, then were met by Demetrius, a Greek DVM who received his MPV at Davis along with Drs. Y and W. We drove back to Athens, and saw one horse (with chronic gutteral pouch infection) at a jumper stable. There are a few such stables in Athens. Arrived at Hotel Lilia in Piraeus, an Athens suburb on the bay near the ferries; walked around the town had dinner ~9:30PM.

Thurs 7:00AM Took the hydrofoil to Hydra, ~2 hrs. It was pretty cold and overcast, but no rain. The seas were moderate. The smaller islands off the Peloponnese have small, picturesque ports. Hydra has no cars and only 4 vehicles -- trash trucks. All cargo is transported by donkeys/horses. The town has many shops and tavernas as well as lines of men with their donkeys/horses, as one would see a line of taxis in any other tourist town. We met Linda Trimis at Hydra; she is from Minnesota, married to a Greek fisherman and has bee in Greece ~13 years. (She's homesick.) We set up in the local football field to see the locals' animals.

We saw 2 horses, 1 donkey, 1 mule, and 1 dog (for vaccinations). We recognized onchocerca in two animals and advised a young man on nutrition and preventive care of his young horse; all were in relatively good health, except for an old donkey with a chronic lameness. The owner, an older gentleman, said that he has had her for 20 years and would not give her up. Overall, the horses and donkeys appear well cared for and in good condition. We had lunch at a local tavern -- baked lamb, eggplant, rice, bread, beer (German), french fries; and caught the ferry to Aegina.

We arrived in Aegina after dark and were met by Elizabeth. She is from Canada and met her Greek husband on a cruise ship ~15 years ago and has been in Greece over 10. She took us to the Hotel Nafiska, a nice hotel closed for the season. The owner, Christina, is a nice, little French woman who supports the efforts of The Friends of the Strays of Aegina and GAWF. She will often open her hotel to their guests and visitors. The hotel was very dark, and very cold, with very little hot water, but is in a very beautiful setting, overlooking the sea. We had dinner ~8:00 with Elizabeth and Reyna, a Boston transplant, and were returned to the (cold, dark) hotel ~10. The small hot water heaters allowed for about a 2 minute shower, if you were lucky. The beds were simple, small and lumpy, but had nice down comforters.

Fri 8:45AM Elizabeth picked us up and we looked at two carriage horses in the village. There are a number of these during the season, but only a few out today. They appear well cared for, are shod. Many are shod by their owners, however, as we found out later, there are farriers that come to the island. We looked at a couple of other horses, privately owned, one a young, black stallion owned by a young, novice man (advised on vaccination, de-worming, and the advantages of castration), and then an older retired horse needing nutritional help and teeth floating. We then went to the old "prison", which is now used by FSA as a volunteer shelter for dogs/cats. They are being evicted by the government to build a museum. The volunteer organizations are very dedicated and are primarily are composed of transplants from the US or UK. We had lunch at Linda's new house (very nice, modern) and then looked at two private stables of very fine horses (7 of Stavros' and 6 of Necktarios'). The owners are very proud of their horses. We got back to the hotel ~6:30 and had dinner with Elizabeth and Ann Ann (with a stop to find a kitten with a broken humerus) and then returned to our room.

Happy Halloween!

Sat. Boarded the 10:00 Flying Dolphin back to Athens. Carol met us and we took a taxi to the National horse center (since abandoned by the government). There is a private gentleman, Yanni who operates a horse rescue operation and currently houses and cares for ~20 horses, most in their mid-twenties or older. The younger horses had various, severe lameness problems from the track or jumping circuit. We advised on nutrition for older horses. Overall, he appears very concerned, well-intentioned and is taking good care of 20 horses who would otherwise have been sent to the "Gypsies" or glue factory years before. He has access to equine veterinary care in the local racetrack vets, but feels they are not well versed in all aspects of veterinary care. (He feels their expertise is primarily related to feet.) We took a bus and finally met up with Drs. B and Y at a hotel in Athens, ~4:00PM.

There we met again with Demetrius and his girlfriend,Ellie, walked around downtown (caught a glimpse of the edge of the Parthenon), were treated to a wonderful Greek dinner in a taverna, had desert at 8:00 (which seemed like 11:00!) and returned to our room.

Sun 6:30AM Departed for Athens airport with Drs. B and Y (who took Dr. W's suitcase and when realizing their mistake left it in the street!!! Dr. W spent an anxious hour until the bag was rescued), and three rescued kittens. Dr. W got to stay an extra day for sightseeing!

Arrived San Diego 5:30 PM, 20 hours later.

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